The quote:
In seminary he had been taught that God had completely stopped any overt communication with moderns, preferring to have them only listen to and follow sacred Scripture, properly interpreted, of course. God's voice had been reduced to paper, and even that paper had to be moderated and deciphered by the proper authorities and intellects. It seemed that direct communication with God was something exclusively for the ancients and uncivilized, while educated Westerners' access to God was mediated and controlled by the intelligentsia.
Although I'm open to it, I don't anticipate getting any notes from God, nor spending a similar weekend with him at a mountain cabin! Yet, listening for His voice with intentionality, and hearing His voice in various ways, not only through Scripture, is increasingly becoming a reality in my journey with Him. I do anticipate hearing from Him when I ask and seek, and even when I'm not specifically asking. What about some of you? How do you hear God's voice? How have others helped you to grow in this? What difficulties, if any, have you had in coming to grips with God speaking to you in ways other than just His written word?
Paul: We tend, as human beings, to view everything spatially (5 senses?), especially when it comes to relationships. But we tend to forget the spiritual side – the mystery that doesn’t work in the same way - where Jesus comes to abide 'inside' of us – according to John 14-16 God (Father, Jesus, Spirit) come to make their residence in union with us, and a transformation process begins to happen from the inside outward.
Maybe we do ‘hear’ Father’s voice or direction through dreams, conversations, circumstances or scripture (spatial understanding), but maybe this is an intermediate or transitional step in our experience of the 'union' that we have with God. Perhaps, as God begins the transforming process from 'within' me, there is a healing of my mind (renewal), a healing of my emotions, my desires are conformed to His nature and character etc ... and as this process continues I actually begin to think His thoughts, feel His emotions, dream His dreams, see with His eyes, touch with His hands ... I will begin to be able to 'trust' my thoughts, my emotions, my ideas, my desires, my inclinations, my aspirations, my imagination.
This is a process! Unless we glimpse this as a possibility we will never move from a 'spatial' understanding of spirituality to something grander and more wonderful - becoming whole people who are fully integrated (the word in the Greek is translated 'perfect').
Bones: As I'm growing in my understanding and experience of Father's constant presence, it is learning to trust that it is His voice I'm hearing that is the challenge for me. Hence my question.
[How often do others try to ‘correct’ what we believe we are hearing?].
Until the resurrection life of Jesus is manifested in you, you want to ask this and that; then after a while you find all questions gone, you do not seem to have any left to ask. You have come to the place of entire reliance on the resurrection life of Jesus which brings you into perfect contact with the purpose of God... (My Utmost for his Highest).
The need for expectancy. It is the multiple ways we hear Him that confirms for me that it is indeed His voice, not my own errant thoughts that I'm hearing. I'm sure that as I grow in this, I'll gain more confidence from the ongoing transformation from the inside to trust that His thoughts have indeed become my thoughts.
Clifton: Since our thoughts and emotions are processed through our physical brains, do you think that the process of God conforming us to his nature and character involves changing the way our brains work? I heard Greg Boyd refer to a study that showed an increase in activity in the primitive part of the brain when deeply held beliefs of the subjects were challenged. The same part that controls the fight or flight response. That would explain why religious and political discussions can get nasty so fast. But I've noticed in myself and others that the more we move from religion to relationship with Father the less defensive we react to things that challenge what we believe.
Kent: It seems that this has to do with what happens when the relationship takes us beyond mere beliefs and faith is birthed. Faith has to do with him and our connection to him and there is nothing to defend or prove. In actuality, beliefs are always very fragile, so we feel a need to defend them so as to prove to the other and ourselves that we are right. Most of our existence in that place is about fight. We fight with others and we fight with ourselves internally. There is no lasting peace in that place to be found. I have come to refer to this place of faith as feeling like a disarming. There is just nothing to defend anymore when we begin to learn to abide in him.
Paul: Even while we are spirit, soul and body, we are still a single entity, and each of these aspects of our person inter-relate and affect each other. I believe that when Jesus comes to live in us, our spirit is made alive and that becomes the centre of our identity, rather than the soul and body (which is still in the process of being saved). From a physiological perspective, I do believe that brain science now supports the possibility that profound changes take place as our thinking changes (old synapse bridges are destroyed and new ones formed), which affects behaviour and I suspect, our very genetic coding as well.
The idea that we are 'just' this or that way, turns out to be a lie. While it is true that we as individuals have very unique bents, gifts, abilities etc, we can anticipate that as God transforms our character, significant change will happen (which we usually only are able to see in retrospect)...we find that what we thought were our 'natural' tendencies is 'overwritten with love'.
Bones: It seems to me that the way our brain works doesn't change with our gradual transformation and conformity to Him, so much as God's healing of our perception of truth changes how we process thoughts and emotions. As we enter into new depths of experience of His love for us, the earlier lies we had believed at the deepest levels of our being and which had previously programmed our brains to direct our thoughts down a destructive path emotionally, will now be uprooted by a deepening conviction at the heart level of His reality, and new neural pathways will be formed based in that truth. But unless we experience His truth at an affective level, the impact of it will not be profound enough to produce transformation and changed thinking. Truth dealt with merely at a cognitive level can't overcome previous interpretations of events which have incorporated the emotions as well. The information received only cognitively doesn't trace the same path as that received via the emotions as well, and thus can't overcome the habits of thought associated with the lies that are so intricately intertwined with emotional responses.
Clifton: Could it be that if we're grabbing things from the world around us to make ourselves feel safe we're sending a message to our brain that says, "I need this"? After that the brain just does its job by protecting what we told it.
Kent: Beliefs are a cognitive exercise where faith is relational and about trust in Papa. Beliefs are about us putting our trust in ourselves. The one operates out of a place of certitude and to keep it going we must exercise great control or more accurately, at least attempt to. As long as that game continues faith is not possible. I find that when we are in this place we aren't too concerned about Papa's leading; we are actually attempting to lead him. Our belief systems have to be removed somehow. Unfortunately what I have seen tells me so often it is a traumatic event or events that cause them to be challenged.
What I think I hear Paul saying is that it all is still about Papa's timing and I think I am beginning to understand that? Human independence leads us to setting up systems of all kinds – belief systems in this instance. They always stand in the way of our relationship with Papa until he comes and causes them to come down.
Bones: I've spent most of my life now involved in a particular work that emphasizes the Great Commission, especially Jesus’ command to "make disciples". Understanding that apart from manipulation and control, there is no "making" anyone believe anything, nor grow in any way, I'm wondering what Jesus had in mind for us to "do" in addition to "be" as disciple makers. I'm specifically contemplating whether one of the more imperative aspects of making disciples isn't helping others to learn to listen to the voice of God for themselves, so that they early on are learning to listen and relate very directly with the Father and respond to the Spirit, rather than being dependent on the discipler as the 'mama bird' pre-digesting spiritual food for them. How do we take Jesus' words seriously and help others to do the same?
Paul: Might I be so bold as to offer the idea that 'The Great Commission' was something tasked to the disciples and not to us. In both passages where it is mentioned, Jesus makes a point of taking the 12 away from everyone else and talking to them. Now, I don't mean to imply that we are not involved in 'gossiping the Good News' as we go, or not involved in the processes of 'discipling', but I would like to suggest that we might unburden ourselves just a little by removing the 'mandate'.
I grew up on the mission field, and I can tell you that there are a lot of people who 'go', not because Jesus has ever asked them to, but because of this 'mandate' couched in guilt-language that persons of certain temperaments and history are particularly susceptible to.
The freedom of knowing Him (A God Journey podcast 8/6/07 with Kevin Smith) – different journeys – no conformity – no agendas – harmony – all coordinated by Father – no place for control and direction if we are living in relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Trust Father for the resources – live life by faith now! Our thoughts and desires are as nothing compared to those of Father. But we are expected to grow – the need to graduate – to leave the nest – prepared to make decisions under Father – beware of being passive – ‘church’ robs people of the ability to make decisions. Many are afraid of being wrong. But it must be one step at a time – then doors begin to open – it needs courage – but each step leads to greater confidence – if we keep our eyes on Jesus!
Bones: I've spent the last 13+ years on the mission field myself, and my own "going" has been a mixture of what you described of the motivations you encountered in your experience, and a growing sense that Father has designed me in a special way that He is using to touch others with the life and freedom that He offers in the Good News of Jesus and His Kingdom. I came out here with just the blend of temperament and history that drove me to seek acceptance and significance through my being here, although upon reflection I continue to have confidence in God's speaking to me and working in some amazing ways as well to get us out of our comfortable American life and over here instead. But I have seen much of what you describe around me, and I have suffered personally and relationally in some significant ways as I have begun to swim against the current of that form of motivation more and more in recent years. But that is another story!
It is not that I haven't been growing in listening to Father and learning to recognize His voice-- that has been one of the most exciting parts of my journey over the last couple of years-- but I feel that I have so far to go myself, and I want so much to help others to be growing into the freedom of a conversational relationship with Him.
Paul: It is one thing to recognize that the longings in your heart "...to help others grow into the freedom of a conversational relationship with Him", are His longings united to yours in your union with Him, but it is another thing to think that you can actually 'do' anything about it. Such longings are a sure reminder of our absolute helpless dependence, and are gifts to drive us back into His love and His ability. If we think such a longing is a 'call' for action, we will necessarily develop an agenda to accomplish it, and so easily (with great intent and motive) move past His purposes.
Does that mean that we 'do' nothing? Well, if he is 'doing' nothing, then 'yes'. We must remember that 'apart from Him, we can 'do' nothing, anyway.'
Let me tell you what is deep down in your heart of hearts - I know because it is in mine. That at the end of the day, that all my activity was Him, and because of Him, and not 'me' exercising my own agenda apart from Him. I don't want to be confused about how much I tried to do and how much He actually did. I don't want to ask Him to bless what I am doing; I want to be permitted to be involved in what He is blessing - even if it is just to watch.
The longing is His longing and any 'doing' or 'not doing' must also be His. "What has begun in the Spirit cannot be perfected (brought to fruition or completion) by the flesh (no matter how 'good' it might seem to be).
And this, by virtue of what it is, is a journey of dependence that is very hard on the flesh that seeks some sort of reward or response, that desires to be significant rather than believe it already is (whether it 'does' anything or not), that wants an identity derived from that 'doing' rather than from 'being' in Jesus...etc
[Are we living with an ability to respond – able to both start and stop things Father has led us to do? There is a need for the process of inner healing – getting rid of our own crap if we are really going to be able to help others – the need for humility and vulnerability].
Bones: So many people are wanting to hear the voice of God, not because they're in love and want to enjoy the encounter, but because they're trying to mitigate risk, i.e. 'If God told me to do it, there will be no risk and no failure.' Clearly, we've come to Father with our agenda, not really ready to listen to what is on His heart, and definitely not tuned in to our relationship with Him.
Paul: I wanted to add just one small thought to the aspect of humility in all this. For a long time, I thought that the purpose of humility and dependence was a 'step' along the path toward wholeness (that in light of my damage and the requisite confessing and repenting I was necessarily humbled), but once I got somewhere down the road to a place of 'reasonable' wholeness, then God could use me (God was getting me healed so he could finally use me). I don't believe that anymore. Instead, the more whole I become, the more I am driven into dependence. "You can't 'do' humility – you either are or are not." God is not healing me so that I become useful to Him, he is healing me because He loves me, and so that I can be free, so that I have an increased capacity to know Him and enjoy Him, to know and enjoy Life. May we always 'be' witnesses in sackcloth and ashes.
Bones: My previously conditioned sense of "significance" and "usefulness" were key driving forces in who I understood myself to be for too many years, and were easily manipulated by those around me who were so inclined. As I grow in my experience of Father's love for me, my freedom grows from these things. I agree that my brokenness is less something to be overcome than that which Father better reveals Himself through, since anything which others may be drawn to in my life will clearly be understood for what it is, "God at work in (me) both to will and to work for His good pleasure".
Of course, there is that within me which longs to be healed from all that is yet to be put right in me, to know and enjoy Him more fully, and to see others He brings me into relationship with coming into that same freedom. But I'm still at risk of adopting an agenda of trying to make it happen. I'm still not totally free of that in me which wants to please others...
Paul: I would like to push you a little on something else; maybe even toward greater freedom. Let me begin with this statement, "The character and nature of God is better revealed by our healing than by our brokenness." Those around us are not attracted to us because of our brokenness, but by the hope that they perceive in our freedom and wholeness and ability to truly love.
There is a semantics issue here with the term ‘brokenness’ and I digress to clarify for a moment. If we mean by brokenness the humbling of the human heart, the bending of the knee (as in the breaking of a wild horse) then we are speaking of something that is actually evidence of and is a true manifestation of our wholeness.
But often we use the term (and if I am not mistaken, this is how it is used above) to describe that ‘we are broken’, hurt by the world, by our choices…damaged. In that sense, ‘brokenness’ is a reflection of our hurt and the corruption of the world and its systems. There is nothing in Jesus that is ‘broken’ in this sense, and people flock to be around Him. Why? In part because the beauty and radiance of Father shines so clearly and cleanly through Him. Even more, his ability to ‘identify’ with damaged human beings, and they with him, is evidence of his wholeness, not because he has been involved in the same damaging behaviours and choices.
What this means, in part, is that the process of healing that God works into our lives is toward brokenness in the first sense, and away from it in the second.
There is at least one major lie that confuses us in all this. Here it is: "I can do something to heal myself." Or, maybe even more subtle, "I can do something to help God heal me." Both of these lies contain the idea of independence, that apart from God, I can do something. The truth is, as hard as it is to understand initially, is that "Apart from Jesus, I can do nothing." But isn’t trusting in Him, resting in Him etc…doing something? You cannot ‘do’ either of these independent of His activity in your soul…which means that every incremental movement in ‘resting’, ‘trusting’, ‘relying’ etc, is a celebration of His love and power in you…a breath of wholeness permeating your person, a scent carried on the wind to be picked up by those around who have not caught that fragrance or aroma before except perhaps in some dream and longing of the heart.
Bones: I appreciate your helpful distinction between the two senses of "brokenness" as we tend to use it. Would you use a different term for the first sense in order to help give further clarity, and to help one to avoid being misunderstood? If so, what would you use?
Paul: Tough question - because the term 'brokenness' is commonly used in both senses and defined by the context of the conversation. Sometimes I talk about how we are damaged, or make destructive choices, or hurt and hurtful when it comes to the sense of what the world and evil has done to us and how we participate in that ourselves. I sometimes talk about 'bowing the knee' or confession and repentance, and similar ideas when I am referring to brokenness before God is the sense of the process of our humbling (which for me is painful and yet powerfully positive process).
Bones: Our brokenness before God is the process whereby He takes us from our fallen brokenness to a place of increasing healing of wounds and emptying of our self, such that His character and nature are revealed in and through us in increasing measure. I agree that it is both painful and positive, as I've passed through much of the former and now can recognize the latter primarily through the unsolicited comments of those who've been observing along the path.
Paul: I love the process you are on and the vistas you are seeing (like hiking a lot). Sometimes you come around a bend and are overwhelmed by the view, and then you plunge back into the forest and all you can see is the trees and brush and the trail...but you know...somewhere up ahead...
It isn't so much the emptying of our 'self' but the removal of garbage and the healing of the soul, so that Jesus is manifest, not in some empty space, but in 'us'. The more whole you are, the greater the expression of His life 'in you' - a unique, special and non-duplicatable (not a real word but you get the gist) expression of Jesus. He loves living in 'you' not an emptied self.
Bones: Our hike up the mountain (with daughter the day before her wedding) was in a fog! We got to the top, and there was a marker & map showing the names and relative locations of all the peaks that normally can be viewed from that point... but the swirling mist was closing in thicker by the minute. Although I regretted not being able to experience the vista, it enabled me to be much more focused on what was visible: the trees, the wild flowers, the berries and brambles, the rock formations.
I suppose that's a metaphor of this portion of the journey I'm on... I would love to be able to see into the distance, to take in the grand sweep of what is out there and the possibilities of the next peaks to be climbed. But Father is not opening that up to me yet! I know that I've come to a higher place in my journey, but I'm not to miss the beauty and detail of where He has me in the present. And I anticipate that there will be paths down into the trees and brush that must be followed before broader vistas can open up.
I agree that we are so much more than an empty vessel for Him to fill with Himself once He's cleaned out the garbage. My soul is complex, multi-faceted, and capable of being redeemed by His life & presence manifest within me in such a way that it expresses His life and glory in a way that only I can.
Bones: Perhaps you can help me process my experience described herein:
Three days ago, I sat across the table from a friend, a brother in Christ, who recently had walked out on his wife and two kids, and has been living with another woman. He told me of the fights he’d had with his wife, her criticism, nagging, etc., and how affirming and encouraging the other woman is to him.
As we talked and drank tea together, I sensed within myself the Spirit prompting me to tell him, “Go home to your family.” I didn’t have or take the time to check it with scriptures or others in the Body right there on the spot, but it resonated with what I know of both, and it was so clear and out of character for me to make such a bold statement. The prompting was so overwhelming, and I blurted out, “I just heard in my heart the Spirit telling me to tell you to go home to your wife.” We didn’t talk about that statement further, but just continued as he wrestled within himself on his internal battle with what he himself was acknowledging to be his sin. I affirmed that Father has not rejected him, and he accepted that and replied that he has not rejected God either despite all of this.
Just now, as I’m sitting here pondering … I received a call from him. He asked about what I’d shared that the Spirit had told me. I repeated it. He said, I’m thinking that if God told you that, He’s telling me the same thing.” I urged him to ask God himself what he’s to do, and then prayed with him over the phone asking Father to do just that. I could hear his voice cracking over the phone as he struggled internally, thanking me for my friendship and for praying for him.
I’m startled by all this! I’ve been on a journey to learn to listen more intentionally to the Spirit living in me, but He seems to be working more and more through speaking to me when I haven’t specifically asked. I’m home today because I’ve set aside the time to process through some things with Him, to reflect and journal, and I find such personal retreats to be a necessary part of my initiating the conversation with Father. But my growing confidence that I’ve heard from Him at his initiative is a by-product of such times, as I have been growing more familiar with what is His voice in contrast to my own in my head and heart.
Paul: The wonder of risk, through which love as the opportunity to become extraordinary!
So...I am getting ready this last Tuesday (Nov 13, 2007) to enter a High School where two Senior classes have come together to hear me talk. I get out of the car and sense the prompting/whisper of the Spirit. Papa is saying, "There is a young lady that will be in this class that I want to particularly bless today...I want you to give her a signed copy of the book." "Cool!" I am thinking as I go back to the car, and get a copy out of the trunk. Then I hear, "Go ahead and sign it for her please, and make it out to Sarah...with an 'h'." Now I'm thinking..."Oh boy, what if there are two Sarah's or none, or not spelled like that..." but I go ahead and sit back in the car and write out a note to her in the front of the book, "Sarah..." By the way, I am not in a town I know, never been in before, never been here and was invited last minute by the teacher who came to a book signing...wonderful man!
10 minutes later I am in the class and the teacher explains what will happen...sing a few songs, have a little prayer and then you talk. He then goes to the front of the class and writes on the blank white board, "Assignments Overdue" - and the first name on the list.... "Sarah" - with an 'h'. During the talk, when I walked over to the white board and circled her name and asked, "Would you please tell me who this is?" and a young woman on the left side of the room raised her hand...you could hear a pin drop. I explained what had happened and that Papa wanted her to understand that he was very aware of her situation and wanted her to rest in his presence. I gave her the book. Everyone listened very well after that...as you can imagine. Sarah and three friends stayed afterwards, and I was able to pray with them as they explained to me why this was so significant...stuff you don't need to know.
Risk is the environment in which faith is grown, but such expressions of the heart of Papa are always that...his heart...and never to hurt or harm, embarrass or disrespect. There is no question in my own heart that you, Ron, expressed Father's heart. Sweet!
If someone asks me to do something impossible...I always say yes...either God will show up or I will be humbled and both are good.
Another contributor: (commenting on Bone’s thoughts of discipleship) - Having grown up in a non-christian and indeed non-religious home my only answer to this can be Eureka Amen. I have no reason to follow a religion and other people but all reasons to follow God and live in His love.
When I was teenager about 16 I started to really ponder why we are here, what am I supposed to do if anything and other deep questions of existence. In my search I researched and pondered the ideas of a few religions (mainly Buddhism) and read up on various philosophies from many sources. My very limited experience of church growing up left me with this view that it was all about rules and rituals and so I was very resistant to anything I saw as church. A couple of years later while going through a time of blackness in my heads life I was led (pushed assertively more like it) to attend a young peoples group connected to one of the local churches. I went for a couple of months and then I stopped going mainly because at the time I was incredibly shy, lacked social skills and struggled with been around so many people at once.
After another couple of months one of the people I had met at the young peoples group caught up with me and invited me to a drink and a game of chess and this led to more meetings of a similar vain. I found him really easy to talk to and I started opening up about the struggles I was having and what turned me off Christianity. He then lent me a couple of books that asked these type of deep philosophical questions and attempted to answer them. And while reading one of them I experienced what I now know to be being touched by the Holy Spirit.
It was not "nice" I felt so convicted of my sin (although I would not have assigned that word to it back then) that I felt absolutely terrible and wanted to run away from I didn't know what. Fortunately I met up with my friend who had lent me the books not too long afterwards and we had some really good chats about what I going through. I increasingly felt God's presence as I grew in my faith and started to hear His voice in many different ways.
I have a relationship with God and have gone through rough patches and been to some really dark places in my heart and God has always been there to heal and to build me up. Anyway back on track I didn't think this would turn into me sharing my testimony of becoming a Christian (sorry about that).
If I had never experienced God for myself through firstly the Holy Spirit, closely followed by Jesus and slowly but surely to the Father I would not have become a Christian and would definitely not be one now. In Velvet Elvis by Rob Bell (great book by the way) he talks about how for some people being a Christian means intellectually assenting to certain beliefs and ideas and then getting other people to believe the same. This to me is purely a religion and I have no reason to follow it any more that following another religion. So after all that babbling I suppose I wanted to say that what another poster said and I quoted above for me must be the only way to disciple.
Bones: That intellectual assenting approach to the Christian life was far more common in my experience through the first 20+ years for me. Now in all my interactions with younger (and older) believers I know, I'm encouraging them to talk with Father, to listen for His voice, and to follow Him. I don't dispense much advice anymore, though I'm always glad to share my perspective if asked for it.
Lisa: In my counseling sessions we do something called the "Aphesis" prayer or healing prayer as my counselor likes to call it. Essentially I say what I think, feel, or have been told by others and then my counselor asks the Lord to speak to me and tell me how He sees me. We are tearing down lies that I am believing and replacing them with God's truth.
At first it was a little weird because I honestly have never tried to listen for the Lord's voice and can't say before that first time that I had actually heard it. Once we had had several sessions, I came to recognize and know when I was hearing his voice or something else. It still isn't easy, but it's been wonderful to know that I am important enough for God to speak to me.
Bones: What you're describing is one of the beautiful aspects of listening to the voice of God that my wife and I've discovered over the last 2 or 3 years: the healing that comes from Him speaking His truth into the wounds of our past through which we have come to believe lies about ourselves or about Him. It is rarely as tangible in our experience as the healing process Mack went through on his weekend at the shack with Papa, Jesus and Sarayu, but with experience God's voice becomes clearer, just as you describe, Lisa, and our experience of walking with Him becomes more personal and intimate.
Bones: (in reply to a lady commenting about The Shack who had had three miscarriages) – My wife and I also went through 3 miscarriages, and the agony of "Why, God?" was tearing us apart, because the doctors couldn't give us any answers. For my wife, given where she had come from family and institutional "church"-wise, the only possible answer was "Because you have somehow displeased Me, and I'm punishing you".
Then one day she was reading in Luke 1, and she read that Elizabeth was barren for many years, but that she was also righteous before God. Father whispered to her, "This is also true of you! I am not punishing you. Trust me!" Through her tears, she shared this with me.
Despite another difficult pregnancy, after weeks at bed rest and taking progesterone, our daughter Elizabeth was born and is now 16. We give thanks every day for how Father spoke to us through both His word and by His Spirit in my wife's heart.
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